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He was the bassist for New Order and Joy Division. He was an integral part of the early acid house days, having owned The Haçienda during the Madchester years. And next month, Peter Hook will be playing Festival No. 6 with his newest band, Peter Hook and the Light.
In a candid phone interview with RA Maher, the legendary author of ‘The Haçienda: How Not To Run A Club’ talks about getting older and recording in wooden shacks, surviving the Factory years and a decade of sobriety, Robin Williams, Ian Curtis, and the aftermath of suicide, getting to celebrate the late Joy Division front man’s life and music, ongoing power struggles threatening to sour New Order’s legacy, collaborating with the Fun Lovin’ Criminals, DJing weird Brazilian festivals with Andrew Weatherall, working on his third book, his favourite car in the world, playing live with his son and friend, Jack Bates, and making a new LP as Monaco.
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Hi Peter, how are you? Thank you for taking the time to chat to me. That’s alright, I’m ok, yeah. I’m just sat here doing a bit of work actually. Boring business stuff that even in Majorca you can’t get away from. I’m just sat here with a bit of cold pizza looking longingly at the sunshine outside.
Do you spend a lot of time in Majorca? Yeah. I’ve lived here (on the school holidays) for about 14 years. It’s nice; it’s a wonderful, beautiful island. I’m a very lucky boy, actually. I do know that. (Laughs)
Have you got a studio out there? No, oh my god, no, no. The one thing I learnt very early on as a musician was never have a studio in your house because otherwise it just gets full of fucking musicians wandering around all the time. And I don’t know if you’ve heard, but they are very egotistical and selfish – a pain in the arse, to be honest. So no. I made that mistake a couple of times, and then I moved out. (Laughs)
Do you try and separate that part of your life? Yeah. I mean it’s interesting, because the thing is (that) it’s cheaper to have one in your house; and I must admit that in the house I spent the most time in, shall we say (I’ve lost a few over the years, to various women) I did have a studio. But the thing is that when you don’t feel like working, when you’re hungover, or when you’re pissed off or whatever, everybody else does. So it sort of compromises you. By the time we did Monaco actually, I bought a little wooden shack in Didsbury, and we used to practice in that. And it was much better to have it outside, because I think it gave you that little bit of privacy, and quiet, that you needed as you got older. Because you do change a lot with your attitude to things as you get older.
How long are you on the road now, Peter? It’s an interesting one that one, you see, because with New Order we used to have time off and then we used to go out on the road. But basically, I’ve realised it’s easier and nicer to do it all the time. I didn’t have that freedom before New Order split up. We always had to do what Bernard said, unfortunately; and the thing is that now, I sort of play every weekend. So I suppose you could say I’m permanently on the road.
And do you still get involved with the party as much as before? (Laughs) That’s a nice way of putting it. But no, I’m an alcoholic. I got sent off in 2004. I’ve been 10 years dry and clean this November. November 23rd. So I can’t. It’s sort of an odd situation...but I did reach the cliché, which was rock bottom. I couldn’t have got any further down if I’d tried. So really, when you get there, the only way is up. And I realise that now, it’s just not for me; I can’t handle it. So no, I don’t do that. I’m very boring. But I must say it’s enabled me to realise what I loved about music in the first place.
When we first started with Joy division, and New Order, we never had any money, so you couldn’t drink or do drugs really. You were very lucky if you got pissed, and that was once in a blue moon, because you just couldn’t afford it. You just did the whole thing for love; for the love of travelling, for the adventure, and for the love of playing the music that you thought was fantastic. When you get into drugs and shit like that, you just start doing it for that, and it’s the wrong way round. You know, I used to wish the gig over so I could get to the party, so I could ‘get involved’, as you so rightly put it. And the thing is that I lost sight of everything, really, to be honest. So it’s nice now to live for the gig like I used to, when I started – really enjoy it. And then, it has been said, it’s back to the hotel for a cup of tea and a wank. Which I think’s a sublime way of putting it, to be honest. (Laughs)
Do you regret doing things the way you did? No, not at all. I had a fantastic time. If only I could remember it. When I did The Haçienda book (The Haçienda: How Not to Run a Club), it was amazing the black spot I had between ‘87 and more or less ‘96. We were just at it so much. It was very difficult and a real struggle to remember it all, because you were so plastered you fucking couldn’t remember anything. I mean Bez put it very succinctly when he was talking about ecstasy and the summer of love and all that, when he said, "Man, I wish I’d have been there."
Do you get flashbacks? Yeah, I get flashbacks all the time. You know, I remember it for the most part. I suppose it was one of those odd things; it was so intense. Do you know what I mean? All of us were lucky...well, there were a lot of people who weren’t lucky. A lot of people really suffered. And one of the sad things about our career, especially with the way the Happy Mondays were sort of peddling the idea that being off your head was romantic, was that it was the cool the thing to do. That was such a load of bollocks; it was very childish and very immature. And it was funnily enough one of the things that Tony Wilson fell for as well, which was odd because he was such a bright, intelligent guy.
But peddling that idea and then, 5 years after it, thinking how many people had a) been lost to mental illness; b) had died; c) had committed suicide. And you do realise, unfortunately the hard way, that it’s not pretty, it’s not glamorous, and it should not be done. It’s a weird position to be in.
Of course Robin Williams was sadly lost to suicide not long ago. Yeah, I don’t know the details of that, but I do know that Robin Williams was an addict the same way I am. And you have to look after yourself. I’m aware of my mortality and my, sensitivity, shall we say. So I do have to be careful. He’d struggled, hadn’t he, with depression?
I believe so. He’d also been relapsing. Which is very sad. The guy was an absolute genius. He always will be an absolute genius. It’s just really sad to hear about anything where drugs are involved, because I know it will not have helped, shall we say. It’s always the way with suicide...I found out the hard way with Ian...that it’s never the person who commits suicide that deals with the problem; they’ve gone. Everyone calls it a long-term solution to a short-term problem. And the thing is it’s the people who are left behind, his loved ones, his wife and his kids and his friends that have to suffer with it, and I know from experience that’s not an easy thing to put up with. It’s a very, very selfish way of doing it.
You’ve just returned from touring China? Yeah, we were in China and Mongolia recently. It’ll be interesting to be in Portmeirion, for the comparison. (Laughs) Mongolia was wild. We got asked to go there by the promoter because some other group had let him down, actually, and we did it at very short notice. It was one of those places you just couldn’t resist going to. I’ve been to China on three occasions. I went first of all in 2004, then again in 2005, and then with the band quite recently. Unfortunately it coincided with that bloody Malaysian airliner coming down; we were in Beijing, which was very, very sad. But yeah, they’re very interesting places. China in 2004 was wild. It really was. It was like Mongolia was, presumably, 30 or 40 years ago. Mongolia was such a strange place, but beautiful at the same time; and the people were fantastic. We went and played a Joy Division set, and to do that in Mongolia was fantastic.
You’re warming up for yourselves playing Joy Division sets, right? What I did was, because I’d waited 30 years to get the Joy Division stuff back, when I started playing it, I thought, “Why the fuck did I wait 30 years?” I mean, I know the reason: because Barney (Bernard Sumner: founder of Joy Division; New Order lead guitarist and vocalist) in particular didn’t like playing Joy Division stuff, and Steve (Stephen Morris: Joy Division and New Order drummer) just went along with him. So we just ignored all the old stuff. Not only Joy Division, but also New Order.
One of the highlights for me of the split, in 2006, was that I got to do what I wanted to do. The thing was Bernard always used to try and stop you if you tried to do stuff like that. Obviously now we’re not together he can’t stop us...so to go back and do it as a celebration for Ian Curtis…because when we were in New Order we never celebrated anything to do with Joy Division. We didn’t play the music; we didn’t do 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, after Ian’s life. It just seemed silly. But it did work, because the focus and the energy that we put into New Order made it an international success.
New Order in financial and, shall we say, international terms were far, far bigger than Joy Division. And the thing is, Joy Division sort of creeps into music very much. Usually brought in by musicians, funnily enough, who love the music and find it an influence; and it’s kept its power and its popularity through that. So the thing is, playing the Joy Division stuff, when we came to moving to New Order….really, my idea is to play every song I’ve ever wrote and recorded at least once before I retire and start doing the garden full time or end up pushing up daisies. Whichever – hopefully the garden comes first. So the thing is, when we moved into New Order I didn’t want to let the Joy Division material go, because I’d just got it back, you know? It was like finding a lost dog. “Oh, there you are!” (Laughs) I just didn’t want to lose it again, so the idea was finding a way where you could still play it as well as moving into New Order; and we did that by supporting ourselves as Joy Division, and whenever we play Joy Division stuff we support ourselves as New Order (or the Witch Doctors of Zimbabwe, which is a name we turned down, hysterically). So we get to play all the music, which is important to me.
Bernard and Steven were very, very conservative. When we were in New Order they just wouldn’t play any of the old stuff. They wanted to play the same old stuff, over and over again. And even if you look at their set list now, in 2014, since their so-called “comeback” in 2011, they’re playing the same songs that we were doing 2006 and 2000. To be honest with you, it’s dead fucking boring. And this reluctance on their part to acknowledge the part that the older material had played in (your) success, I found very odd. I was shocked by it, you know? Because I loved the old stuff. So now, in a funny way, I get to revel in that; and they can carry on churning out the same shit they do, like a Frankenstein New Order.
I take it you’re not on good terms? No, we should be coming to court soon, actually, in my legal fight against their use of the name. So I’m still fighting. It’s a very long process, and very boring and very sad. But that’s life.
And you play with your son now? Yes. It was quite strange, really, because when we started celebrating for Ian at the Factory in Manchester, I didn’t want to sing, I wanted to play bass. I’m in the really weird position that I’ve got two people playing my basslines in two different bands, and I don't get to do it. (Laughs) It’s really odd, that. And the thing is that I couldn't get a vocalist.
There was a bit of an Internet, shall we say, backlash before we even played about what we had planned; and it scared off all the people that I wanted to sing. And the only one that stuck by me, god bless her, was Rowetta. (Rowetta Idah; vocalist known for her work with the Happy Mondays.) In the end, Rowetta said to me, “Hooky, you’re going to have to face up to it love: you’re gonna have to sing.” And I was like, “Ah shit!” Because Ian’s shoes...are very big shoes to fill. I was very, very nervous and very, very reluctant, but really, if I was going to do what I said...and I am pretty good at doing what I say. Once I set out to do something I usually stick by it. So I thought, “Right then, that’s it.” And then obviously we had a vacancy for a bass player.
Now, my son had played with me, funnily enough, at a couple of charity gigs in Manchester as the bass player in Monaco, because we used to have two bass players in Monaco; and he was very good. He learnt to play, god, I think he was about 8 or 9 – much younger than me when he learnt to play. And he was good. And the thing is, to me, once I got my head around it, it was perfectly natural. The funny thing was and the scary thing: when we started playing “Unknown Pleasures” together he was exactly the same age as I was when I did “Unknown Pleasures.” When we did “Closer,” he was the same age. “Movement,” he was the same age. It’s just like a mirror...a really odd thing. But he’s a very, very good player; and even when he plays it wrong and I say to him, “Actually, you’re doing that a bit wrong,” he goes, “No I’m not!” (Laughs) And I think, “Where did he get that from?” Obviously me.
But he’s a good lad and I love having him there, I must admit; he’s very, very passionate and very enthusiastic about it. He really is a great ally to have in my corner. I’m very proud of him.
I hear you’re working on a third book? Yeah. I was doing that when you rang me, actually. I’m doing the rewrite for the New Order book. I know Bernard’s got his out in September – mine’s going to be next year some time. I want to...it’s such a long period of time, this one, you see, because I split mine. His book’s a book of his life, and I refused to do one book because I felt the stories are too big for one book. I felt that each facet of our careers deserved a separate book: the Hacienda was huge, Joy Division was huge, New Order’s huge; and New Order is a long period of time – it’s 26 years of my involvement. Then you had the ‘zombie’ years, and then you’ve got ‘Frankenstein’ and ‘Fraud Order.’ Of course, the only thing I’ll be writing about is the legal aspects of what they stole from me, in my opinion.
So the thing is that you’re writing about 26 years. And I must admit doing the book, it’s amazing what we achieved; we really should be very proud. It makes it sadder, really, that you’re all sat there bickering now, because of what you went through. We were lucky to survive. We were lucky to survive the Haçienda. We were lucky to survive Factory’s collapse. We really did have to work, very hard, to keep going. And it’s a shame that at the end a little playground scuffle, shall we say, has sort of soured it. But doing the book has given me a lot of smiles, a lot of laughs...for what we went through. Especially in the early years of New Order, It was a real struggle.
Do you find writing purges somewhat? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s funny actually. There are some really funny moments. But I can see this dark part, where it turned, which was basically a struggle for power between Rob Gretton (the late Joy Division and New Order manager) and Bernard. And because Rob Gretton was ill, Bernard sort of took over, really; and that’s when it started to go downhill, shall we say. Interesting stories; it’s a very interesting story. I just hope Bernard ![]()
can do it justice in one book, because I couldn’t even consider it. They asked me to do one book. You get a lot more for one book money wise, than you do for three, because they can sell it to Joy division fans, Hacienda fans, New Order fans… there’s a bigger market for one book than there is for three, you see; so I do understand why he’s done it. It’s the same thing that I went through when I came to do mine. But I just hope he can do it justice, because I couldn’t even consider it.
Have you played Festival No 6 before? No, no, we haven’t. The nearest we got to it was Sasha at Parklife. I was originally brought in with the Haçienda as a partner, and then it didn’t work out, and Sasha ended up doing it on his own with John Drape, Ear to the Ground (promoter). And the success of that led to Kendal Calling, and then Portmeirion. I mean Portmeirion is a beautiful, beautiful place. It really is. And to be honest with you, it was crying out for a festival. I must say, all power to him for grabbing that, because it’s such a great place. And The Prisoner...Patrick McGoohan...one of my favourite programs. He drives my favourite car in the world, actually: the Lotus 7. So the whole connotation of it all. and I’ve been to Portmeirion many times. I’m really happy about it; it’s nice that he made it. I know he had Fraud Order on last year. (Laughs) So maybe he’s feeling bad about that. I hope he his! (Laughs).
I interviewed Andrew Weatherall last week and he speaks highly of it. Lovely bloke. He’s a really nice bloke. I’ve DJed with him round the world in some really weird places, and whenever we bump into each other...because I love the whole thing that Andrew was involved with...I think he’s absolutely wonderful. I actually think he’s quite underrated, to be honest; and he’s a really nice guy. Is he playing this time?
He is, yes. Wonderful, it’ll be great to see him. The last time I saw him was in Brazil. We DJed together at a really weird festival, I don’t remember the name of…
Before we run out of time Peter, what else have you got coming up? Playing Joy Division at Bestival next week – so I’ve got a healthy career playing Joy Division music, which is lovely. I’m playing the New Order stuff; we’re moving to Lowlife and Brotherhood in September on the 26th in Manchester and then London. So that’s another 45 songs I‘ve got to learn there. I’m going to be playing the most songs that I’ve ever played in my life. The way this carries on, me and the Light will be able to play upwards of 110 songs. So it’s quite a challenge. But this next music, when I listen to it, has left me humbled. We’ve made some great records with New Order.
Also we’re writing now; we’re writing a new LP as Monaco. Because all the boys in the band are from Monaco, apart from my son; and he’s an honorary member of Monaco, so we thought we’d do some material together. And I’m doing a track now with Fun Lovin’ Criminals too, which is brilliant. So yeah, I’m very busy with the book and everything. I’m very happy actually. It’s good.
Excellent. Thank you. I must say hello in Portmeirion. Please do mate; I’ll be walking around with my mouth open! Did you ever see that place in Knutsford that’s done by the same architect?
No? Yeah, there’s a place in Knutsford (in Cheshire) where all the houses are done in the same Italian design. It’s the same designer that did Portmeirion. He did this little enclave in Knutsford. (Peter’s referring to English designer Richard Harding Watt) It’s beautiful, and I always think of Portmeirion whenever I drive through. It’s absolutely fantastic; you should check it out.
I will. I haven’t even been to Portmeirion. You’ll love it. Regardless of the festival. And the hotel on the hill; the modern hotel that looks down on to the village. If you get the chance you should go up for a drink. It’s beautiful.
Thanks for the tip. And thanks again for your time. You’re welcome mate. You take care of yourself.
Peter Hook and the Light play Festival No 6 on Saturday 6th September: http://www.festivalnumber6.com
can do it justice in one book, because I couldn’t even consider it. They asked me to do one book. You get a lot more for one book money wise, than you do for three, because they can sell it to Joy division fans, Hacienda fans, New Order fans… there’s a bigger market for one book than there is for three, you see; so I do understand why he’s done it. It’s the same thing that I went through when I came to do mine. But I just hope he can do it justice, because I couldn’t even consider it.
